Motion To Approve submitted by Louie Diaz seconded by Frederick Docdocil resulting in 7-0-0-0-0

The presentation was provided by Special Projects Manager James Nguyen.

***This item was heard after item number 9.

-1. CONDUCT a Public Hearing;

-2. RECEIVE and FILE the staff report and all related testimony;

-3. CLOSE the Public Hearing; and

-4. DELIBERATE and TAKE ACTION at the discretion of the Planning Commission, including considering adoption of Resolution No. 26-2900, entitled, "A RESOLUTION OF THE PLANNING COMMISSION OF THE CITY OF CARSON DENYING SITE PLAN AND DESIGN REVIEW NO. 1935-23 AND CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT NO. 1128-23, AND RECOMMENDING THAT THE CITY COUNCIL DENY DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT NO. 33-23 FOR A PROPOSED BATTERY ENERGY STORAGE SYSTEM (BESS) FACILITY LOCATED AT 18800 BROADWAY AVENUE, APN 7339-014-009".

Vice Chair Diaz - Out of all the residents and stakeholders in the outreach process, what percentage would you say expressed any opposition to the project if any?

Senior Planner Pompey - The applicant may be better able to answer that question.

Planning Manager Alexander - Can you advise the commission on the number of applicants that arrived, attended the previous meeting, and compare that to the number of mailers that were sent out?

Senior Planner Pompey - I was involved in the last two neighborhood meetings. I believe about 6 residents and parties attended in January and between 8 to 10 individuals in February.

Planning Manager Alexander - Approximately how many mailers went out? Maybe Planning Secretary Gonzalez can confirm that.

Planning Secretary - 174 mailers.

Vice Chair Diaz - Out of those that attended the meetings in January and February, what would be the percentage against the project versus those in favor of going through with the project? Is there a correlation?

Senior Planner Pompey - I believe everyone who attended supported the project.

Vice Chair Diaz - For our vital infrastructure projects, whether they are gas lines, gas station tanks, electricity lines, sewage plants, etc., are you able to say with 100% assurance that there will never be an accident?

Senior Planner Pompey - No.

Commissioner Johnson - What's the reporting radius for the notices?

Senior Planner Pompey - We mailed out 1000 feet radius for tonight's public hearing as well as the last neighborhood meetings.

Planning Manager Alexander - The typical radius is 750 feet. To make sure we reached out to the community, we expanded to 1000 feet.

Vice Chair Diaz - Has the Fire Department signed off on this project?

Senior Planner Pompey - The Fire Department reviewed the applicant's submittal of an alternative materials and methods report.

Planning Manager Alexander - The L.A. County Fire Department provides the report and the information regarding the project as well as mitigation measures. They are not the deciding body in terms of approval. They provide a technical review of this project.

Chair Thomas - I have major concerns about the proximity to the hospital and residential homes. Can you guarantee this city 100% that this project is safe and there will be no issues?

Richard Stillwagon (L.A. County Fire Dept.) - With any project, we can't guarantee 100% safety. 

Chair Thomas - We know there are things that have happened in multiple communities across the country. There's always a potential for something to happen. What would happen if there was a fire at this location? How would you be able to mitigate that?

Richard Stillwagon - We have several tactics we utilize in the fire department. We work with the applicant at the end of the construction where we are trained. We train everybody in the battalion and the neighboring battalions to respond to an incident, learning all of their safeguards and all their security measures for ensuring that an incident stays as small as possible and hopefully in this case confined to the container of origin, which has been the history of what we've seen with BESS fires throughout the State of California and nationally. Once we respond to the incident, we evaluate the incident as we do with all our incidents, and then we take the best appropriate tactical measure moving forward. The challenge with BESS fires is that they are a container within a container. As we apply our normal traditional method of extinguishment, water rains down over the overall container, thus not allowing us to penetrate where the active fire is, so that becomes the challenge. However, there are mitigation tools that we can utilize with active hose streams to umbrella a container, which is best practices to prevent lateral spread from container to container throughout the farm in the field. We also have separation distances which help prevent the spread between battery energy storage systems throughout the energy field. The other item is to utilize hose streams on the neighboring unit to cool it and to prevent it from catching fire, that way it can't spread outside of its origin. The rain-down effect absorbs a lot of the heat, the combustion particles, and the chemicals coming off the fires. Ultimately, the fires burn themselves out, just like a Tesla vehicle fire, but these are on a bigger scale. I'm very familiar with the technology that's being proposed here. The Tesla Megapack 2 is excellent technology and has excellent safety built-in procedures. They followed all the California fire code requirements, which includes a detection source. We want to get early detection. We want notification to our emergency first responders to initiate action and get on the scene as fast as possible. Secondly, that indicator puts off an alarm device. The alarm device is loud to clear everybody out of the immediate area to ensure public safety and anybody doing business on site. Finally,  we have a water system on site to utilize and keep these incidents small. The actual ignition source is built into these systems. If they have a gas leak detection, they have a sparker system that lights the gas on fire. They do that to prevent explosions. They want to prevent bigger or greater hazards. That's the way the technology is designed to work and consume itself. 

Chair Thomas - When you say burnout, explain what needs to happen?

Richard Stillwagon - We allow the hazardous materials to burnout or extinguish themselves. In this case, hydrogen gas and carbon monoxide gas are released. Hydrogen gas burns at 1700 degrees plus Fahrenheit which consumes most of the other chemicals within the burning process. This is why we believe that we haven't seen larger amounts of chemical readings off the sites during a BESS fire.

Chair Thomas - Is there a chance that there can be an explosion? What would be the ramifications of an explosion?

Richard Stillwagon - There are two types of containers. There are closed containers where they use a ventilation system to prevent the explosion. Then the megapacks that are used here in this scenario, which the igniter system ignites and thus prevents the explosion. Should the igniter system fail across the board, then you could get a gaseous buildup and then an explosion could occur. We've seen explosions and ruptures in small areas of the container. We've never seen a full-scale container explosion; however, we do have all our companies model to that effect for first responder safety. As we respond in incidents, we want to know what the setback distances are so we can be safe and then approach accordingly. Then they become our evacuation distances.

Chair Thomas - While you're assessing these kinds of conditions, is the neighborhood waiting for you to tell them to evacuate?

Richard Stillwagon - No, the large alarm system that is on site notifies the whole neighborhood. The neighborhood is going to know they need to evacuate when they hear that sound.

Chair Thomas - We're hoping people hear that sound and don't ignore it.

Richard Stillwagon - It's twofold, (1) the initial warning sound and then (2) working with law enforcement to evacuate the area needed.

Chair Thomas - I'm asking all these questions because we just went through the fires that took place in Altadena and Palos Verdes a year ago. Residents said they never heard an alarm. Can you give your assurance that is something our residents don't have to worry about? Would you as a Fire Chief give your assurance that those concerns are not valid?

Richard Stillwagon - The California State Fire Marshal's Office says that anything over 600 kilowatt-hours in a utility BESS scale facility has a 50-foot setback from hospitals, schools, and other sensitive receptors including residential. That's the California State Fire Marshal's ruling, and I work for the California State Fire Marshall.

Chair Thomas - Are they saying there are no worries because of the setback?

Richard Stillwagon - That's what the code reads and that's what I'm bound to, it's the law. An applicant  meets the application of the law, then I have to approve the project.

Chair Thomas - I'm not feeling reassured. Someone has to be looking out for those residents who didn't get to attend the community meeting and for those that didn't even know the meetings happened. I'm not hearing that there's no chance that anything could potentially happen there. No one is giving me that assurance.

Richard Stillwagon - In L.A. County we have the strictest requirements in the entire nation. We're leading the nation in safety requirements. The 10-foot wall that is engineered to withstand any blast was designed to limit that explosion. We utilize a 10-foot wall because the containers themselves are 10 feet and the actual hazardous material is below that level. It's national and state practice to have a wall that's 18 to 36 inches above the hazardous material to contain all products. If there was a concern about that blast one of the mitigating measures would be to elevate the height of the wall to a 13 feet level which would then give you that 36-inch clearance, but that would be a condition of the applicant.

Chair Thomas - With the connectivity that's taking place at the substation, there are other toxins that could potentially escape in the event of an incident. Would they not clear the wall?

Richard Stillwagon - When we have these types of fires, the toxicity in outdoor BESS facilities has not put up any readings during emergency incidents that have cleared the site. We don't have any data that supports that. There were incidents throughout California where they did have vapor exposure offsite but was with older technology with heavy metal batteries and it was in a contained building. The building kept burning, thus reigniting the battery cells, thus keeping a prolonged exposure. Here in L.A. County, I have never approved nor I will approve that type of facility because of its dangers and hazards. We move to the outdoor container as the best solution to that problem.

Chair Thomas - We don't have any data that tells us it can't happen.

Richard Stillwagon - No, I think you would be looking for a toxicology report from the applicant. They could do a toxicology report during a large fire test that could show the actual vapors that are coming off the chemical exposure and then they could do modeling behind that.

Vice Chair Diaz - What gave you the confidence to sign off on this project?

Richard Stillwagon - We are leading the nation in safety in the space. We have higher regulatory requirements than anybody else in the state. Nobody requires a blast wall. We demanded our applicants to provide the explosion modeling to where we could provide a reinforced wall to keep fires and explosions contained withing sight. That is a higher-level requirement. We were the first in the nation to require and demand internal gas detection systems and or smoke systems to get that early warning and to let everybody evacuate the area. There is some public outreach that the applicant has to do to make notifications of when they hear this sound, here's best practices in that space. We are leading the nation throughout all the departments. We work with the Department of Energy. We also have a member of our department who is one of the voting members for the California entity that's been set up to start looking into the space and for the regulating as we move into the commercial space with the smaller units. He also sits in the larger NFPA committees to make sure that we're abreast of all the situations that are going on within the codes committee. We're giving our experience, we're leading the way in the national discussion, and then we are partnering with the State Fire Marshal's Office working with all the departments in California that have had incidents to learn our lessons and move forward. The California Fire Code says that a battery energy storage system can be 25 feet from a building if it has a 2-hour firewall. The walls that are being built on these facilities are 4-hour rated against fire. That doesn't eliminate or take away all hazards but those are emergency response hazards that happen with every institution, every building, every chemical on earth. As one of the leading fire departments, we have the capacity to respond to all incidents. We are an all-risk organization, and we will respond and take care of those situations. If we have evacuation needs, we'll ensure the safety of the public in those evacuations. We have the reverse 911 system that can be pre-programmed for this facility as a quick outreach to our local citizens to let them know there's a hazard in the area and give them directions and instructions. The Sheriff's Department handles that side of things. The mitigating factors containing the process or limiting the exposures to one container or one group of containers is our goal, we feel we have done that. I signed off on the alternative materials and methods because they provided those mitigating measures. I like the idea of the toxicology report. I think that it would be great going forward if the commission decides to go in that direction and/or increase the barrier wall height which would then not only get the lateral spread. In an explosion, we were most concerned about the lateral spread of debris. That's what could threaten a life or harm individuals.

Commissioner Huff -  Has there been any testing when it comes to smoke or any other particles that are able to escape and go over the wall?

Richard Stillwagon - Our review is specifically for the property of origin and mitigating the hazards on site.

Commissioner Huff - What would you say the value of this report should be used for?

Richard Stillwagon - The value of the Alternative Materials and Methods Report is the quantities in the battery energy storage system space have exceeding the normal quantities that the fire code was written for. Once we exceed those requirements, we go to a utility scale requirement. When we're dealing with utility scale requirements we put in all the safety measures. The fire chief of Los Angeles County has committed to following every law and safety measure that is applicable in this space. We have to apply all the safety mitigation factors. When you look at safety, it's not in a single item, it's the design of the product. It's the battery energy management storage system module that contains the energy flow within the unit. I look at all hazardous material throughout L.A. County all the way up until nuclear. We utilize the same hazard AMMR process with anything that exceeds the maximum allowable quantities under the code. In this case the code only speaks to 660 kilowatt hours and a setback of 50 feet, when we go beyond that distance, then we ensure that through the testing of the project, the modeling that we've asked for, and the additional requirements we've asked for, ensure public safety when it comes to life threats and or toxins. If you would like a further toxicity report that would come from the applicant.

Commissioner Huff - So you have covered everything that you know with the understanding that there's certainly exceptions still out there that may need to be accounted for?

Richard Stillwagon - Yes, I think there's opportunities and I think staff did a good job in identifying those elements and bringing those to the commission's attention. We do have further mitigating measures that we could utilize. If requested for further review, we could work with staff to provide those.

Commissioner Docdocil - My understanding is that from the beginning staff has shared their concerns about the density of the neighborhood. Hearing that there are other neighbors within 500 a feet radius of this project, and hearing from today's staff report, do you feel that city staff has a valid point in recommending denial?

Richard Stillwagon - Based on the information presented today and the additional questions that were asked, from city's staff standpoint, I would say yes. I think that if that was the vote today, the next step would be to take the item back to staff to identify the mitigating factors for additional safety requirements that the applicant would then have to provide.

Commissioner Docdocil - There's a risk and it's going to be very difficult to guarantee with 100% certainty that we can eliminate all those risks. Especially on top of the fact that it's so close to neighbors.

Commissioner Johnson - What's the blast wall setback from the facility?

Senior Planner Pompey - I believe the blast wall is around 20 feet away from the nearest container. It's proposed to be around the property.

Commissioner Johnson - Could a blast go 20 feet high, 20 feet diagonal?

Richard Stillwagon - We were presented with the blast modeling, and we utilize that into our rationale for approving the AMMR process. The blast modeling showed that the wall was engineered to withstand the blast, and it showed that if any product should escape the facility, they didn't appear to be lethal.

Commissioner Johnson - So the likelihood of death is low or none, but there's still the likelihood of injury if somebody is standing adjacent to the wall.

Richard Stillwagon - I'm not a design professional nor an engineer, that's why we utilize certified engineers to guarantee and meet that requirement. We utilize state certified civil engineers that design for the applicant.

Commissioner Johnson - You mentioned that there's a very loud alarm in the event of an emergency.

Richard Stillwagon - On a previous facility that's been in operation for a year has been operating without an incident. We provided a loud alarm because we have an apartment complex approximately 300 feet away and we wanted to notify residents that there could be an incident nearby. The public wanted to be notified and they wanted the loud alarm. That was part of the public outreach.

Commissioner Johnson - Is the public given a very specific evacuation plan?

Richard Stillwagon - Due to property rights laws in California, we can't tell people what to do on their property. From the Fire Department perspective, we rely on the applicant to do community outreach. We also rely on the Sheriff's Department to assist us with those evacuation plans. They are the leading agency when it comes to evacuations.

Commissioner Johnson - Where is the community evacuating?

Richard Stillwagon - The park is just one avenue of evacuations, but due to the blast modeling that we just saw, we are not talking about large areas. The evacuation zone is usually 300 feet for that maximum potential and then we reduce the size from there based on the actual event that we're seeing.

Commissioner Johnson - How long would it typically take for a fire to burn out if you have to wait it out?

Richard Stillwagon - That's hard to calculate because it's going to depend on where it starts in the process. If it starts on a top cell and the container, then it takes a relatively short time because it's going to burn itself out quickly. Fire tends not to burn downwards. It starts on the bottom rack, then it has the potential to burn up. Due to the 9548 testing that is mandated for these types of facilities and just the container itself, the test is designed so it doesn't propagate from one cell to another. We have seen lateral spread across the top cells within a unit rather than the whole thing burning up. The chemistry that's involved with lithium-ion salts are not heavy metals, so they don't go low to the ground. They don't go into the soil and contamination of soils. We haven't seen any evidence of that throughout the industry, through any fires that we've had. They are getting consumed in the fire and then becoming trace elements. That is also what some of the toxicology reporting has shown.

Commissioner Johnson - I still don't have a relative scale of the timing.

Richard Stillwagon - It could be anywhere from 45 minutes to a couple of hours depending on the significance of the fire. There's going to be a lot of environmental factors. We see a lot of fires in the 2-to-4 hour range.

Commissioner Johnson - You mentioned the current system exceeding the parameters of the code as it's written. How much do they exceed?

Richard Stillwagon - The original code was written for the residential space and limiting the amount of battery energy storage onto a residential home. That was the intent because we are putting the same technology right onto people's homes through power packs to charge vehicles, and through parking lots for battery energy for vehicle charging stations. It's pretty much the same technology with little differences between the companies. It varies depending on the technology and what we're seeing out there. The same technology is in our automobile industry. About 40% of the cars sold in California are electric vehicles with the same technology.

Commissioner Johnson - Understanding the similarities and scale between the technology, would you say it's 1, 2, or 10? 

Richard Stillwagon - It could be 70 times greater. It's quite a bit larger than our residential facilities.

Kyle Snyder (Applicant) - Provided a presentation.

Vice Chair Diaz - How many of the ORMAT projects are within urban areas?

Kyle Snyder - Approximately 19 storage projects, they are located in New Jersey in populated areas, Pomona-California as mentioned, and the big island of Hawaii.

Vice Chair Diaz - Has there ever been an issue with neighbors because of accidents?

Kyle Snyder - No.

Commissioner Johnson - Where is the energy coming from?

Kyle Snyder - It'll come from the SCE system. We have a substation adjacent to the property that will interconnect to. It's a standalone storage. We don't have a co-location with a solar plant or anything like that.

Commissioner Johnson - I heard that you have an alarm in place. Is there a specific instruction for the community members or the adjacent businesses?

Kyle Snyder - In terms of evacuation, the plan will be developed with coordination with L.A. County Fire.

Commissioner Johnson - Is that part of the risk and alliance process? Is there a specific evacuation plan for the community?

Christian Ing (Fire Protection Engineer with Fire Risk Alliance) - There will be horns and beacons around the perimeter of the site that are above the perimeter wall. These will flashlight as well as play loud siren sound that will alert any occupants in the vicinity to evacuate.

Commissioner Johnson - Are they given specific instructions?

Christian Ing - They are not. It is just a siren sound.

Commissioner Johnson - The Fire Risk and Alliance report did mention a reduced likelihood of catastrophic events. I've seen the increase in capacity quantified. I've seen a lot of things quantified. I didn't see the likelihood of catastrophic events quantified, I only see reduced. 

Christian Ing - In 2019 there was an event in Surprise Arizona. That was a BESS fire where first responders were injured and since then the code has come a long way. In 2020 the first edition of NFPA855 was developed, which is a standard for energy storage systems. Since then, there have been two additional code cycles dated 2023 and 2026. Unfortunately, that event happened, but it did drive a lot of safety renovation in the industry; as such, catastrophic events have been reduced; as such, since 2019 no members of first responders or members of the public have been injured by BESS incidents.

Commissioner Johnson - Just out of curiosity, understanding those events have been reduced, the capacity of the systems has also increased since then, right?

Christian Ing - I would agree with that.

Chair Thomas - There's always a likelihood that something can happen. How many BESS locations do you have in California? How many pending projects do you have?

Kyle Snider - We have 5 BESS locations in California. We probably have 8 or 10 projects in the queue. Interconnection timelines take the longest amount of time. You have to do them in California ten years in advance. This project was submitted 7 years ago for instance and here we are.

Chair Thomas - Are the five that you have identified in urban areas?

Kyle Snider - Yes, three out of five are in urban areas.

Chair Thomas - What is the environment around the Pomona site?

Kyle Snider - It's industrial. There are sensitive receptors in terms of residential probably, 500 feet away from the project.

Chair Thomas - How many homes from 500 feet away would you say? Did you reach any opposition when you built that?

Kyle Snider - There's a neighborhood there. We did not have any opposition. That project was originally built in 2016, and it was expanded in 2022.

Chair Thomas - What's the environment in the Carpinteria location?

Kyle Snider - It's a very populated and no opposition there.

Chair Thomas - How did you make the decision about the location in Carson?

Kyle Snider - As I mentioned, it was done about seven years ago when we submitted into the interconnection queue. With battery storage, in California specifically, you are looking at what they call capacity. It's a product that ensures that when the grid systems get tight, when there's not enough power to meet the load,that they can meet that and that you don't have brownouts or rolling blackouts. And so, deliverability is only available at certain places where this transmission system can handle it and where it's needed to ease transmission congestion. This project has deliverability. That's why the substation was chosen for this project.

Chair Thomas - A decrease in incidents means we had incidents, but we have not eradicated the number of incidents.

Kyle Snider - That's true, we'll never eradicate it. 

Chair Thomas - Where are the gas detectors?

Christian Ing - They are located within the unit. They are located on the interior doors of the mega pack. They are located towards the top because gas will rise. During a thermal runaway event, gas would be released from any battery cell and then it would be detected by the detector within the unit.

Chair Thomas - At the time when the alarm goes off, what happens?

Christian Ing - The visual and audible alarms at the site will activate and then the fire department will be notified as well.

Chair Thomas - Is there someone at the premises that's looking at the system, so they know when everything is happening?

Christian Ing - The alarm systems is an automatic system. 

Kyle Snider - Our network operations center is in Philadelphia, and they monitor all the batteries.

Chair Thomas - So there's no operation and maintenance on site.

Kyle Snider - No.

Public Comments:

Wendy Sanchez supports the project.

Tommy Faavae supports the project.

Chelsea Sykes supports the project.

Lena Whittaker supports the project.

Michael Stewart supports the project.

Jacob Iridia supports the project.

Christie Caric supports the project.

Jonah Henry supports the project.

John Strohecker supports the project.

Pastor Mike Ealey supports the project.

Loren Miles opposes the project.

Chair Thomas - There were a number of letters that were sent regarding this project, and those letters have been added into the record.

Motion To Substitute submitted by Louie Diaz seconded by Frederick Docdocil resulting in 2-5-0-0-0 Opposed by Del Huff, Clarence Johnson, DeQuita Mfume, Dianne Thomas, Leticia Wilson, Motion Failed

Motion To Approve staff's recommendation submitted by Dianne Thomas seconded by Del Huff resulting in 5-2-0-0-0 Opposed by Louie Diaz, Frederick Docdocil, Motion Passed